![BBC HomepageSkip to contentAccessibility HelpYour accountLiveNotificationsHomeNewsSportWeatheriPlayerSoundsBitesizeMore menuMore menuSearch BBCHomeNewsSportWeatheriPlayerSoundsBitesizeCBBCCBeebiesFoodClose menuBBC NewsMenuHomeIsrael-Gaza warCost of LivingWar in UkraineClimateUKWorldBusinessPoliticsCultureMoreTechScienceHealthFamily & EducationIn PicturesNewsbeatBBC VerifyDisabilityWorldAfricaAsiaAustraliaEuropeLatin AmericaMiddle EastUS & CanadaSan Quentin begins prison reform – but not for those on death rowPublished7 minutes agoShareclose panelShare pageCopy linkAbout sharingImage source, Keith DoolinImage caption, Keith Doolin and his mother, Donna Larsen, are worried about his transfer to another California prisonBy Madeline HalpertBBC News, New YorkCalifornia is transferring everyone on death row at San Quentin prison to other places, as it tries to reinvent the state’s most notorious facility as a rehabilitation centre. Many in this group will now have new freedoms. But they are also asking why they’ve been excluded from the reform – and whether they’ll be safe in new prisons.Keith Doolin still remembers the day in 2019 when workers came to dismantle one of the United States’ most infamous death chambers. He was in his cell at San Quentin prison on the north side of San Francisco Bay, watching live footage on television showing an execution chair – where 194 people had been put to death – carried away after more than 80 years of use. The green gas chamber being taken apart was just several hundred feet from where he sat.A former long-distance truck driver convicted of murder, Doolin has spent nearly 23 hours a day for the last 28 years in a tiny cell. He long worried he would one day be shackled to a mint-green chair and executed.But in the last few years, California has been moving fast with some plans for prison reform. Governor Gavin Newsom’s decision to deconstruct the death chamber – and also place a moratorium on the death penalty in the state – was a watershed moment for Doolin.”He [Newsom] was sending the message: ‘Look, it might take a while, but things are going to change’.”Mr Newsom is now seeking more changes at San Quentin, which currently has the nation’s largest death row. The governor announced last year that he planned to transform the state’s oldest prison into a rehabilitation centre. He will close the prison’s death row unit and move Doolin and the other 532 death row inhabitants to standard prisons across the state in the coming months (70 have been moved already). Doolin and his neighbours will still have death sentences – meaning they will spend the rest of their lives in prison. For some, the threat of execution still looms large, as a future governor could reinstate the state’s death penalty. Six people on death row who spoke to the BBC over the phone shared mixed feelings about their move. Some were elated by the opportunity to live closer to family and step outside their cells without handcuffs, while others were terrified at the prospect of starting over after decades living alone in a cell.Image source, Getty ImagesRats, birds and handcuffs: Life on death rowBuilt in 1852, San Quentin is California’s oldest prison and the state’s only facility for incarcerated males who have been sentenced to death. Since 1893, 422 people have been executed there, including by gas, hanging or lethal injection. Family members walk by the entrance to the prison’s execution chamber every time they visit their loved ones, said Doolin’s mother, Donna Larsen, who drives a nine-hour round trip once a month to visit her son.The execution chamber would emit a green light that turned red as a person was being executed, a sight visible to Californians driving by on the highway, she said. This green room of death – and infamous inmates such as cult leader Charles Manson – have brought international notoriety to San Quentin, featured in podcasts, television shows and films.When Ramon Rogers arrived at the prison in 1996, rain leaked through the ceiling of the death row unit, and mice and rats would run rampant. But the biggest pests, he said, were the birds. “They started defecating all over the place – all over the railings,” he said. “It was a gross environment.”Since then, life on death row has remained restrictive and, at times, hazardous. An outbreak of Covid-19 during the height of the pandemic killed at least 12 death row inmates – part of a wider coronavirus surge at the prison that infected 75% of the population.Ms Larsen – Doolin’s mother – said she was shocked by how dirty the prison was the first time she visited. “It had a stench to it,” she said. “Sometimes Keith’s clothing smells mouldy when we visit. To know that your loved one is living in that made me sick.”Image source, Getty ImagesImage caption, Those imprisoned in San Quentin’s death row spend nearly all of the day in their cellsPeople housed in San Quentin’s death row are kept alone for most of the day in a roughly four foot (1.2m) by nine foot (2.7m) cell, a space that Doolin said feels like a “sardine can”. The 51-year-old was sentenced to death in 1996 for killing two sex workers and shooting four others. Doolin has maintained his innocence, and a California attorney has alleged that he has information learned while working on another case that could potentially exonerate him. But the lawyer, David Mugridge, told the BBC that he could not share the details due to attorney-client privilege.Doolin and others living on death row are required to wear handcuffs at all times when outside their cells, which officers have to unlock with metal keys after strip-searching them. Image source, CDCRImage caption, A photo of one of the cells, provided by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation”Our daily life confinement is based on going from one box to another,” said another inmate, Tony, who declined to share his last name for privacy reasons.Death row inmates are offered little access to rehabilitative programmes except for some college courses and jobs such as cleaning showers.Ending death rowIn March 2019, Governor Newsom issued an executive order that halted the death penalty in the state and ordered the dismantling of the gas chamber in San Quentin. Mr Newsom’s move did not alter any incarcerated individuals’ sentences, though he said that he might later consider commuting death row sentences.While the state had not actually performed an execution since 2006, Mr Newsom argued the death penalty system had been “by all measures, a failure” that was unfairly applied to people of colour and people with mental illness. According to the Death Penalty Information Center, black people comprise 34% of California’s death row, but only 6% of the state’s population. Since 1973, seven people on death row in the state have been exonerated. Preparing for bigger changes, Mr Newsom announced a two-year pilot programme in 2020 to transfer around 100 volunteers from San Quentin’s death row to other prisons, the first move in his bigger plan to eventually move all the inmates out, to more than 20 other prisons that meet security requirements.Correll Thomas left San Quentin with the pilot programme in 2021 after being on death row since 1999.But at Centinela prison, in Imperial, California, settling in was a struggle. “They didn’t want to give us [rehabilitation] programs,” he said. “We had to pretty much fight for everything.”Image source, Correll ThomasImage caption, Correll Thomas was happy to have the chance to leave San Quentin death rowOther prisoners and staff appeared frightened of his death row status, said Thomas, who added that with time, some at the prison grew to accept him.Ramon Rogers, the inmate who first arrived at San Quentin in 1986 when birds and rats had overrun the facility, said the move was welcome. “I didn’t care where they sent me, I just knew anywhere else would be better,” he said.Now at the Richard Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego, Rogers, 64, has been able to enrol not just in rehabilitation programmes but also college.The greatest relief, he said, came from not having to wear handcuffs around the clock outside his cell for the first time in decades.”Sometimes, I’m amazed at what I’m allowed to do here that I would never be able to do on death row.”Starting over But some advocates say not enough support is being offered as these inmates make a drastic transition. There is a “huge difference” between the people on death row who chose to leave and those being forced to move now, said Gavrilah Wells, a volunteer with human rights group Amnesty International. “I’m so worried about the safety and the human rights of so many people being involuntarily transferred,” she said. “The massive endeavour of rapidly moving 550 people to unknown prisons, with unknown cultures specific to each facility, raises serious concerns.”Ms Wells and other advocates say moving the death row population, which includes many who are sick and elderly, poses great challenges. The oldest person in San Quentin’s death row is 93. “It’s not the same as just transferring any person in prison,” said Natasha Minsker, a policy adviser for non-profit Smart Justice California. Advocates worry about those being moved far away from their lawyers and family members, and how they will adjust after decades living alone in a cell.”These guys have never lived with anyone but themselves,” Tony said. “They’re going to have to learn how to do things all over again.”Image source, Keith DoolinImage caption, Doolin is worried about starting over and avoiding conflict in a new prison with a new cultureDoolin is anxious about avoiding conflict as he interacts with more people than ever before, including prison guards. “It’s extremely stressful,” he said. “I’m forced to start all over again like my first day in prison.”Ms Larsen, Doolin’s mother, said she and others suggested programmes to offer support to their incarcerated loved ones as they made the transition, but the prison turned them down. ‘We still have humanity’For several death row inhabitants, the anxieties of a new environment are outweighed by the prospect of breaking free from a dismal life in San Quentin. “For some people, it’s a godsend,” Tony said. “They want to leave this oppression.” But for others, the departure from San Quentin before its estimated $360m (£282m) upgrade has only served as a reminder of their inferior status as condemned people. Mr Newsom has said the goal is to transform the prison into a college campus-like setting, modelled on Scandinavian correctional facilities that focus on rehabilitation.In response to a question from the BBC on how people on death row fit into the state’s larger plans for prison reform, Mr Newsom’s office said he was committed to “addressing failings in our criminal justice system – including the discriminatory nature of the death penalty system”. Mr Newsom’s office did not elaborate on why people on death row could not participate in the San Quentin project, but touted the closure of death row and his moratorium on the death penalty.The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation said all the death row inmates had to be moved because San Quentin did not have the “required lethal electrified fence”. It did not respond when asked why that had been okay up to this point. It also did not respond to questions about support being offered to transfers.Darrell Lomax, one of the men in San Quentin, said: “It’s not what they’re doing. It’s the way they’re doing it… Why are we being moved so they can make room for a rehabilitation program that doesn’t even serve us?” The arrangement sends the “unfortunate” message that one of the biggest prison reform projects in the US can’t include people sentenced to death, Ms Minsker said. Tony believes some in California are still not ready to reckon with the status – and future – of those sentenced to death, even in a state that is not executing people.”There’s a notion that because we’re here, it’s the end of the road,” he said. “But we still have humanity in this place. I don’t think our humanity has been seen enough.” Related TopicsPrison reformUnited StatesCaliforniaMore on this storyHow desperate US prisoners try to escape deadly heatPublished25 July 2023California governor halts executionsPublished13 March 2019What life is like after 48 years wrongfully behind barsPublished6 JanuaryTop Stories’He will come back’ – Israeli hostage families cling to hope, and demand a dealPublished2 hours agoIceland volcano lava nears Grindavik in new eruptionPublished35 minutes agoHow much trouble is Boeing in?Published58 minutes agoFeatures’He will come back’ – Israeli hostage families cling to hope, and demand a dealThe Papers: ‘Shapps missile threat’ and ‘Strictly stars summit’The ‘insane’ plan to save the Arctic’s sea-iceShould adult Harry Potter fans ‘grow up and get over it’?Chris Mason: How will Welsh Labour change under Gething?Born on 7 October: Gaza mum’s fight to feed her babyWorkaholics Anonymous: ‘I couldn’t step away from the computer’What we know about Meghan’s regal lifestyle brandRos Atkins on… Why one in five people do not work. VideoRos Atkins on… Why one in five people do not workElsewhere on the BBCThe ultimate bromanceWatch the masters of satire Peter Cook and Dudley Moore with a look back through the archivesAttributioniPlayerThe mystery of a devastating helicopter crash…A weekend away for those leading the intelligence war in Northern Ireland turns to disasterAttributioniPlayer’A few people laughed, a few cried, most were silent’The extraordinary story of the rise and fall of the inventor of the atomic bomb, J Robert OppenheimerAttributioniPlayerFancy a film tonight?There’s something for everyone on BBC iPlayerAttributioniPlayerMost Read1’Shapps missile threat’ and ‘Strictly stars summit’2How much trouble is Boeing in?3Derek Thompson’s Casualty exits after 38 years4Iceland volcano lava nears Grindavik in new eruption5’Unprecedented’ M25 closures enter third day6Game of Thrones creators: Why we swapped dragons for aliens in new show7Councils told to consider residents’ support of LTNs8Diana’s press attention more dangerous than Kate scrutiny – Spencer9Shapps abandoned Ukraine trip over security – MoD10Ed Davey calls for ‘once in generation’ election](https://newsinsightplus.com/wp-content/uploads/https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/branded_news/B60C/production/_132940664_gettyimages-1130296485.jpg)
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BBC HomepageSkip to contentAccessibility HelpYour accountLiveNotificationsHomeNewsSportWeatheriPlayerSoundsBitesizeMore menuMore menuSearch BBCHomeNewsSportWeatheriPlayerSoundsBitesizeCBBCCBeebiesFoodClose menuBBC NewsMenuHomeIsrael-Gaza warCost of LivingWar in UkraineClimateUKWorldBusinessPoliticsCultureMoreTechScienceHealthFamily & EducationIn PicturesNewsbeatBBC VerifyDisabilityWorldAfricaAsiaAustraliaEuropeLatin AmericaMiddle EastUS & CanadaSan Quentin begins prison reform – but not for those on death rowPublished7 minutes agoShareclose panelShare pageCopy linkAbout sharingImage source, Keith DoolinImage caption, Keith Doolin and his mother, Donna Larsen, are worried about his transfer to another California prisonBy Madeline HalpertBBC News, New YorkCalifornia is transferring everyone on death row at San Quentin prison to other places, as it tries to reinvent the state’s most notorious facility as a rehabilitation centre. Many in this group will now have new freedoms. But they are also asking why they’ve been excluded from the reform – and whether they’ll be safe in new prisons.Keith Doolin still remembers the day in 2019 when workers came to dismantle one of the United States’ most infamous death chambers. He was in his cell at San Quentin prison on the north side of San Francisco Bay, watching live footage on television showing an execution chair – where 194 people had been put to death – carried away after more than 80 years of use. The green gas chamber being taken apart was just several hundred feet from where he sat.A former long-distance truck driver convicted of murder, Doolin has spent nearly 23 hours a day for the last 28 years in a tiny cell. He long worried he would one day be shackled to a mint-green chair and executed.But in the last few years, California has been moving fast with some plans for prison reform. Governor Gavin Newsom’s decision to deconstruct the death chamber – and also place a moratorium on the death penalty in the state – was a watershed moment for Doolin.”He [Newsom] was sending the message: ‘Look, it might take a while, but things are going to change’.”Mr Newsom is now seeking more changes at San Quentin, which currently has the nation’s largest death row. The governor announced last year that he planned to transform the state’s oldest prison into a rehabilitation centre. He will close the prison’s death row unit and move Doolin and the other 532 death row inhabitants to standard prisons across the state in the coming months (70 have been moved already). Doolin and his neighbours will still have death sentences – meaning they will spend the rest of their lives in prison. For some, the threat of execution still looms large, as a future governor could reinstate the state’s death penalty. Six people on death row who spoke to the BBC over the phone shared mixed feelings about their move. Some were elated by the opportunity to live closer to family and step outside their cells without handcuffs, while others were terrified at the prospect of starting over after decades living alone in a cell.Image source, Getty ImagesRats, birds and handcuffs: Life on death rowBuilt in 1852, San Quentin is California’s oldest prison and the state’s only facility for incarcerated males who have been sentenced to death. Since 1893, 422 people have been executed there, including by gas, hanging or lethal injection. Family members walk by the entrance to the prison’s execution chamber every time they visit their loved ones, said Doolin’s mother, Donna Larsen, who drives a nine-hour round trip once a month to visit her son.The execution chamber would emit a green light that turned red as a person was being executed, a sight visible to Californians driving by on the highway, she said. This green room of death – and infamous inmates such as cult leader Charles Manson – have brought international notoriety to San Quentin, featured in podcasts, television shows and films.When Ramon Rogers arrived at the prison in 1996, rain leaked through the ceiling of the death row unit, and mice and rats would run rampant. But the biggest pests, he said, were the birds. “They started defecating all over the place – all over the railings,” he said. “It was a gross environment.”Since then, life on death row has remained restrictive and, at times, hazardous. An outbreak of Covid-19 during the height of the pandemic killed at least 12 death row inmates – part of a wider coronavirus surge at the prison that infected 75% of the population.Ms Larsen – Doolin’s mother – said she was shocked by how dirty the prison was the first time she visited. “It had a stench to it,” she said. “Sometimes Keith’s clothing smells mouldy when we visit. To know that your loved one is living in that made me sick.”Image source, Getty ImagesImage caption, Those imprisoned in San Quentin’s death row spend nearly all of the day in their cellsPeople housed in San Quentin’s death row are kept alone for most of the day in a roughly four foot (1.2m) by nine foot (2.7m) cell, a space that Doolin said feels like a “sardine can”. The 51-year-old was sentenced to death in 1996 for killing two sex workers and shooting four others. Doolin has maintained his innocence, and a California attorney has alleged that he has information learned while working on another case that could potentially exonerate him. But the lawyer, David Mugridge, told the BBC that he could not share the details due to attorney-client privilege.Doolin and others living on death row are required to wear handcuffs at all times when outside their cells, which officers have to unlock with metal keys after strip-searching them. Image source, CDCRImage caption, A photo of one of the cells, provided by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation”Our daily life confinement is based on going from one box to another,” said another inmate, Tony, who declined to share his last name for privacy reasons.Death row inmates are offered little access to rehabilitative programmes except for some college courses and jobs such as cleaning showers.Ending death rowIn March 2019, Governor Newsom issued an executive order that halted the death penalty in the state and ordered the dismantling of the gas chamber in San Quentin. Mr Newsom’s move did not alter any incarcerated individuals’ sentences, though he said that he might later consider commuting death row sentences.While the state had not actually performed an execution since 2006, Mr Newsom argued the death penalty system had been “by all measures, a failure” that was unfairly applied to people of colour and people with mental illness. According to the Death Penalty Information Center, black people comprise 34% of California’s death row, but only 6% of the state’s population. Since 1973, seven people on death row in the state have been exonerated. Preparing for bigger changes, Mr Newsom announced a two-year pilot programme in 2020 to transfer around 100 volunteers from San Quentin’s death row to other prisons, the first move in his bigger plan to eventually move all the inmates out, to more than 20 other prisons that meet security requirements.Correll Thomas left San Quentin with the pilot programme in 2021 after being on death row since 1999.But at Centinela prison, in Imperial, California, settling in was a struggle. “They didn’t want to give us [rehabilitation] programs,” he said. “We had to pretty much fight for everything.”Image source, Correll ThomasImage caption, Correll Thomas was happy to have the chance to leave San Quentin death rowOther prisoners and staff appeared frightened of his death row status, said Thomas, who added that with time, some at the prison grew to accept him.Ramon Rogers, the inmate who first arrived at San Quentin in 1986 when birds and rats had overrun the facility, said the move was welcome. “I didn’t care where they sent me, I just knew anywhere else would be better,” he said.Now at the Richard Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego, Rogers, 64, has been able to enrol not just in rehabilitation programmes but also college.The greatest relief, he said, came from not having to wear handcuffs around the clock outside his cell for the first time in decades.”Sometimes, I’m amazed at what I’m allowed to do here that I would never be able to do on death row.”Starting over But some advocates say not enough support is being offered as these inmates make a drastic transition. There is a “huge difference” between the people on death row who chose to leave and those being forced to move now, said Gavrilah Wells, a volunteer with human rights group Amnesty International. “I’m so worried about the safety and the human rights of so many people being involuntarily transferred,” she said. “The massive endeavour of rapidly moving 550 people to unknown prisons, with unknown cultures specific to each facility, raises serious concerns.”Ms Wells and other advocates say moving the death row population, which includes many who are sick and elderly, poses great challenges. The oldest person in San Quentin’s death row is 93. “It’s not the same as just transferring any person in prison,” said Natasha Minsker, a policy adviser for non-profit Smart Justice California. Advocates worry about those being moved far away from their lawyers and family members, and how they will adjust after decades living alone in a cell.”These guys have never lived with anyone but themselves,” Tony said. “They’re going to have to learn how to do things all over again.”Image source, Keith DoolinImage caption, Doolin is worried about starting over and avoiding conflict in a new prison with a new cultureDoolin is anxious about avoiding conflict as he interacts with more people than ever before, including prison guards. “It’s extremely stressful,” he said. “I’m forced to start all over again like my first day in prison.”Ms Larsen, Doolin’s mother, said she and others suggested programmes to offer support to their incarcerated loved ones as they made the transition, but the prison turned them down. ‘We still have humanity’For several death row inhabitants, the anxieties of a new environment are outweighed by the prospect of breaking free from a dismal life in San Quentin. “For some people, it’s a godsend,” Tony said. “They want to leave this oppression.” But for others, the departure from San Quentin before its estimated $360m (£282m) upgrade has only served as a reminder of their inferior status as condemned people. Mr Newsom has said the goal is to transform the prison into a college campus-like setting, modelled on Scandinavian correctional facilities that focus on rehabilitation.In response to a question from the BBC on how people on death row fit into the state’s larger plans for prison reform, Mr Newsom’s office said he was committed to “addressing failings in our criminal justice system – including the discriminatory nature of the death penalty system”. Mr Newsom’s office did not elaborate on why people on death row could not participate in the San Quentin project, but touted the closure of death row and his moratorium on the death penalty.The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation said all the death row inmates had to be moved because San Quentin did not have the “required lethal electrified fence”. It did not respond when asked why that had been okay up to this point. It also did not respond to questions about support being offered to transfers.Darrell Lomax, one of the men in San Quentin, said: “It’s not what they’re doing. It’s the way they’re doing it… Why are we being moved so they can make room for a rehabilitation program that doesn’t even serve us?” The arrangement sends the “unfortunate” message that one of the biggest prison reform projects in the US can’t include people sentenced to death, Ms Minsker said. Tony believes some in California are still not ready to reckon with the status – and future – of those sentenced to death, even in a state that is not executing people.”There’s a notion that because we’re here, it’s the end of the road,” he said. “But we still have humanity in this place. I don’t think our humanity has been seen enough.” Related TopicsPrison reformUnited StatesCaliforniaMore on this storyHow desperate US prisoners try to escape deadly heatPublished25 July 2023California governor halts executionsPublished13 March 2019What life is like after 48 years wrongfully behind barsPublished6 JanuaryTop Stories’He will come back’ – Israeli hostage families cling to hope, and demand a dealPublished2 hours agoIceland volcano lava nears Grindavik in new eruptionPublished35 minutes agoHow much trouble is Boeing in?Published58 minutes agoFeatures’He will come back’ – Israeli hostage families cling to hope, and demand a dealThe Papers: ‘Shapps missile threat’ and ‘Strictly stars summit’The ‘insane’ plan to save the Arctic’s sea-iceShould adult Harry Potter fans ‘grow up and get over it’?Chris Mason: How will Welsh Labour change under Gething?Born on 7 October: Gaza mum’s fight to feed her babyWorkaholics Anonymous: ‘I couldn’t step away from the computer’What we know about Meghan’s regal lifestyle brandRos Atkins on… Why one in five people do not work. VideoRos Atkins on… Why one in five people do not workElsewhere on the BBCThe ultimate bromanceWatch the masters of satire Peter Cook and Dudley Moore with a look back through the archivesAttributioniPlayerThe mystery of a devastating helicopter crash…A weekend away for those leading the intelligence war in Northern Ireland turns to disasterAttributioniPlayer’A few people laughed, a few cried, most were silent’The extraordinary story of the rise and fall of the inventor of the atomic bomb, J Robert OppenheimerAttributioniPlayerFancy a film tonight?There’s something for everyone on BBC iPlayerAttributioniPlayerMost Read1’Shapps missile threat’ and ‘Strictly stars summit’2How much trouble is Boeing in?3Derek Thompson’s Casualty exits after 38 years4Iceland volcano lava nears Grindavik in new eruption5’Unprecedented’ M25 closures enter third day6Game of Thrones creators: Why we swapped dragons for aliens in new show7Councils told to consider residents’ support of LTNs8Diana’s press attention more dangerous than Kate scrutiny – Spencer9Shapps abandoned Ukraine trip over security – MoD10Ed Davey calls for ‘once in generation’ election
[ad_1] The execution chamber would emit a green light that turned red as a person was being executed, a sight visible to Californians driving by on the highway, she said.…
![BBC HomepageSkip to contentAccessibility HelpYour accountLiveNotificationsHomeNewsSportWeatheriPlayerSoundsBitesizeMore menuMore menuSearch BBCHomeNewsSportWeatheriPlayerSoundsBitesizeCBBCCBeebiesFoodClose menuBBC NewsMenuHomeIsrael-Gaza warCost of LivingWar in UkraineClimateUKWorldBusinessPoliticsCultureMoreTechScienceHealthFamily & EducationIn PicturesNewsbeatBBC VerifyDisabilityWorldAfricaAsiaAustraliaEuropeLatin AmericaMiddle EastUS & CanadaTucker Carlson interview: Fact-checking Putin’s ‘nonsense’ historyPublished1 hour agoShareclose panelShare pageCopy linkAbout sharingImage source, ReutersImage caption, Mr Putin began the interview by claiming that that 862 was the year of the “establishment of the Russian state”By Ido VockBBC NewsUS talk show host Tucker Carlson’s interview with Russian President Vladimir Putin began with a rambling half-hour lecture on the history of Russia and Ukraine. Mr Carlson, frequently appearing bemused, listened as Mr Putin expounded at length about the origins of Russian statehood in the ninth century, Ukraine as an artificial state and Polish collaboration with Hitler. It is familiar ground for Mr Putin, who infamously penned a 5000-word essay entitled “On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” in 2021, which foreshadowed the intellectual justification the Kremlin offered for its invasion of Ukraine less than a year later. To historians, the litany of claims made by Mr Putin are nonsense – representing nothing more than a selective abuse of history to justify the ongoing war in Ukraine.Regardless of the historical realities, none of Putin’s assertions would form a legal justification for his invasion. A state-centred narrativeMr Putin began the interview by claiming that that 862 was the year of the “establishment of the Russian state”. This was the year that Rurik, a Scandinavian prince, was invited to rule over the city of Novgorod, the capital of the Rus – the people who would eventually develop into today’s Russians. Mr Putin contrasts what he claims is the unbroken tradition of Russian statehood dating back to the ninth century with the modern “invention” of Ukraine – a country he insists was “created” as late as the twentieth century. Image source, Getty ImagesImage caption, An engraving of Prince Rurik in 862But Sergey Radchenko, a historian at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, says the president’s claim is “a complete falsehood”. “Vladimir Putin is trying to construct a narrative backwards, saying Russia as a state began its development in the ninth century. You could equally say that Ukraine as a state began its development in the ninth century, exactly with the same kind of evidence and documents.”He’s trying to use certain historical facts to construct a state-centred narrative that would favour Russia as opposed to any alternative agglomerations.”Putin says deal can be reached to free US reporter Putin takes charge as Carlson gives free rein to KremlinThe former Fox star interviewing Vladimir PutinRonald Suny, a professor at the University of Michigan, says the Rus was made up of “a bunch of bandits, who burned their own capital repeatedly”. He adds that Mr Putin is repeating an “established mythology made up at certain points in the past by Muscovite tsars who trace their lineage back to Rurik”.”This mythology was crystallised in Moscow to justify their imperial hold over Ukraine.”A ‘special ethnic group’Mr Putin told Tucker Carlson that by the seventeenth century, when Poland came to rule over parts of present-day Ukraine, they introduced the idea that the population of those areas “was not exactly Russians. Because they lived on the fringe, they were Ukrainians.””Originally the word Ukrainian meant that the person was living on the outskirts of the state, along the fringes.” But Anita Prazmowska, a professor emerita at the LSE, refutes this. She says while a national consciousness emerged later among Ukrainians than other central European nations, there were Ukrainians during that period. “[Vladimir Putin] is using a twentieth-century concept of the state based on the protection of a defined nation, as something that goes back. It doesn’t.”Mr Suny says that while it may be true that Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians “came from the same stock … through time, they developed into different peoples.” ‘New Russia’Mr Putin claims that areas in the south and east of Ukraine “had no historical connection with Ukraine whatsoever”. Conquered from the Ottoman Empire by the Russian Empress Catherine the Great in the seventeenth century, the Russian president says that means these lands are in fact rightfully Russian. Mr Putin later refers to them using the seventeenth-century term “Novorossiya” – New Russia. Mr Suny points out that the inhabitants of these lands when they were conquered by Russia were neither Russian nor Ukrainian, but Ottoman, Tatar or Cossacks – Slavic peasants who had fled to the frontiers. Image source, Getty ImagesImage caption, Catherine the Great conquered parts of present-day UkraineBut claiming that these territories are in reality rightfully Russian serves Mr Putin’s interests, as they are precisely the territories that Russia is attempting to conquer from Ukraine during the now decade-long conflict with its neighbour. So-called Novorossiya includes Crimea – illegally annexed from Ukraine in 2014. New Russia also covers areas around Kherson, Mariupol and Bakhmut, which Mr Putin declared part of Russia in 2022.An ‘artificial state’Mr Putin went on to claim that “Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at [Joseph] Stalin’s will,” arguing that Ukraine was created by the Soviet leadership in the 1920s and received lands that it had no historical claim to. In a sense, he is correct, says Prof Radchenko. The Soviet leadership drew up the borders of Soviet republics “almost like the Western colonial powers drew up borders in Africa – kind of randomly.”But that does not mean that Ukrainians did not exist.”More broadly, Mr Radchenko denies Mr Putin’s claims that Ukraine is not a real country because it was formed in its modern form in the twentieth century. “Any country is a fake country, in the sense that countries are created as a result of a historical process.”Russia was created as a result of decisions taken by the Russian tsars, such as the colonisation of Siberia, which came at the considerable expense of the local population.”If Ukraine is a fake country, then so is Russia.” ‘Collaborating with Hitler’Perhaps Mr Putin’s most inflammatory claim was regarding Poland. Mr Putin claimed that Poland – which was invaded by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in 1939 – “collaborated with Hitler”. The Russian president told his interviewer that by refusing to cede an area of Poland called the Danzig Corridor to Hitler, Poland “went too far, pushing Hitler to start World War Two by attacking them”. For Prof Prazmowska, President Putin’s interpretation of history is a flawed reading of the historical record. She says that while it is true that there were diplomatic contacts between Poland and the Nazis – the first treaty Hitler signed after coming to power was a non-aggression pact with Poland in 1934 – Mr Putin is conflating diplomatic outreach to a threatening neighbour with collaboration. “The accusation that the Poles were collaborating is nonsense,” says Mrs Prazmowska.”You can’t interpret these things as if this were collaboration with Nazi Germany, because it just so happened that the Soviet Union also signed treaties with Germany [at the same time].”In September 1939, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland according to the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact signed between both states earlier that year. More on this storyPutin takes charge as Carlson gives free rein to KremlinPublished5 hours agoWhat do Putin and Carlson gain from Kremlin interview?Published15 hours agoTop StoriesLive. 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